Wicipedia:Y Caffi/archif/2

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Avon

Is there an accepted name for the River Avon (that runs through Bristol). Afon Avon seems rather crap. 62.254.0.14 21:27, 22 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

Wedi symud neges Siôn i waelod y tudalen -- Gareth Wyn 17:02, 25 Meh 2004 (UTC)

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Qwestiwn: Enwau llefydd a phersonnau

Byddwn i'n mwynhau sgrifennu rywbeth am Siapan, ond mae yna problem gyda'r enwau. Dw i'n hapus iawn gyda Siapan a Tocio, ond beth am llefydd ddim yn mor enwog? Er engraifft, fydd rhaid sgrifennu Shikoku (Hepburn Transliteration, sy'n cael ei defnyddio mewn lawer o wledydd) fel Sicocw??? Ac os sgrifennu Sicocw, beth am y ji mewn Fuji???

The other - and really more important question is - would I get on everybody's nerves muddeling on in my unfortunately less than perfect Welsh? I would definitely need someone to smooth over missing mutations, wrong expressions and the like. I'm trying to improve and I'm enjoying this page, so I wouldn't want to be a bother! --219.207.92.34 07:47, 24 Ebr 2004 (UTC)...

Ynglyn ag enwau llefydd tramor, dwi'n credu dylid dilyn yr Atlas Gymraeg -- oes copi gydag unrhywun? Fel arfer mae'n cadw enwau'r llefydd yn yr iaith dramor, heblaw fod yna enw cynhenid Cymraeg, e.e Rhufain = Roma.

Ond yn bennaf, dal ati! We need as many editors as possible :-) I'm sure that people will clear up any gwallau iaith that appear, so there's no need to worry. Gareth Wyn 08:27, 24 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

Diolch yn fawr! Da iawn, so I'll have a go and try! --219.207.92.34 08:36, 24 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

There are loads of people on the English wikipedia who don't speak very good English, but many of them soldier on and just wait for someone else to tidy up after them -- which is what it's all about. The only thing that's different here is that the kosher Welsh speakers may not be in the majority! Deb 16:32, 24 Ebr 2004 (UTC)

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DATGANIAD: WIKTIONARY CYMRAEG

Just to let you know that all languages have now been given their own Wiktionary, an attempt to create an open-source dictionary in each language. Ours is at cy.wiktionary.org. There's next to nothing there at the moment, but if anyone fancies getting in on the ground floor as an Administrator, please do! You might like to take a look at the English one at en.wiktionary.org to see what they're looking for. -- Arwel 00:24, 3 Mai 2004 (UTC)

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Doubtful pages

I've just had a look at all the articles and changes the weekend brought - and I must say, I am impressed! It really looks very good! However, there also was one new page that I found rather puzzeling, to say the least, especially after having looked at the internet link. At least to me, it looks like just the sort of pages all wikipedias try to get rid off... Would somebody please have a look at it? It is called Richard Stallman... --Okapi 08:23, 10 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Well, Richard Stallman is important enough in the Free Software / Wiki area to justify an article, but I don't think that this one is it. The article seems to have been created and deleted about 5 times since the beginning of last month, each time containing just a few links. Unfortunately one of these earlier versions had a lot of interwiki links, and the bots have found them and created links to cy from many other Wikipedias, so it's likely that if we just delete it again someone will re-create it. I feel it's as if someone was forcing us to create an article on a subject we wouldn't choose to have if left to our own interests... but I think the best way to regularise things would be to make a proper translation of one of the other Wikipedia's articles. Any volunteers? :) Arwel 13:40, 10 Mai 2004 (UTC)

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Technical terms, capitals and other matters of design

I have to confess that there are a couple of things I am not really sure about:

1. What do we do about technical terms if we find a whole variety of them? That really happens quite a lot to me. I found about 3 or 4 terms for Aqueduct (which made me start to doubt whether they really are terms at all) and a couple for cadwyn bywyd, as well. I usually take whatever is used on official & obviously well informed websites (or by the BBC, though they also tend to offer more than one) or what I find at least 2 or 3 times, but should we put in all of them and fill the Wici with redirects, so that people can at least find our articles?
2. Do you, the native speakers, usually write technical terms using capitals at the beginning of the words or all nouns? The web seems to vary widely on that point, but do we have a policy? If you use capitals in more than the first word you also have to use them when looking for something and when linking things in new texts, don't you? Might that make things difficult for those who are looking for something?
3. What do we do with terms and places names that sometimes seem to turn up in Saesneg or with a translation on other websites? Like the Horseshoe Falls of Afon Dyfrdwy. I have found a Welsh word for them, but I am not at all sure whether it is well known. It seems to be ok as the page it turns up on is linked to a page on the Wiki Saesneg and it isn't a title yet, either. But would people know what to look for? Or would it be better to put in redirects with the English names? For that matter, wouldn't an official bilingual list of place names be helpful, both for those writing and not too sure of all names (like me...) and for those trying to find something?

I'm craving for enlightenment! --Okapi 06:54, 13 Mai 2004 (UTC)

I agree, a "standard" or "approved" list of place names would be okay, and resolve problems when there appear to be two alternatives, eg. Crucywel/Crughywel.

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MediaWiki:Golywedd

Mewn arbrawf, fe wnes i ychwanegu erthygl "golygwedd" a'r Hafan (gwelwch Template:Golygwedd, a chymharwch en:MediaWiki:Feature). Mae erthyglau arall am Sgwrs MediaWiki:Golygwedd... meddyliau? Marnanel 21:14, 23 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Whow, Looks great!!!!

(btw., shouldn't it be "Golygweddau eraill", both plural? And is this a link? If it is, it isn't on my screen...) --Okapi 08:20, 24 Mai 2004 (UTC)

1) yes-- oops! thanks. changed.

2) It will be, but there aren't any other ones to link to yet. Marnanel 23:30, 27 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Syniad da, ond o beth 'dwi'n ei gofio, mae 'golygwedd' yn golygu viewpoint, aspect ayyb. I think we should use 'pigion' ('selections' -- this is plural). Gareth Wyn 11:49, 29 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Botiaid

Robot

Robot

What's our policy about running bots? I'd like to run one to upload pictures for several series of articles whose pictures are just simple copy-and-pastes from en: (in particular, chemical elements, Popes, flags and coats of arms of countries, maps and CoAs of English, Scottish and Irish counties, and maps, flags and CoAs of US states spring to mind). That would save a lot of mechanical labour in adding these pages. I have some experience (en:User:HeraldicBot) in this already, but I'd like to talk about policy before doing anything.

Should our bot policy be similar to en:'s (en:Wikipedia:Bots), maybe?

(After a picture bot... thinking ahead here... it might well be useful to have a bot which wrote basic pages for series like the elements-- just putting in the table with the weights and so on, based on other Wikipedias', and boilerplate text like "XXXX yw elfen gemegol" which would then be added to by a human editor. This would save time for actually writing text rather than making lots of little boxes.) Marnanel 23:54, 27 Mai 2004 (UTC)

New Design

In the middle of writing something the design suddenly switched, which really took me somewhat by surprise.... You will have noticed, but what's worse, neither the chwiliwch-function nor the Media-Wikis seem to work and some of the tables seem to have grown in width... --okapi 11:52, 28 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Nid yn unig hynny, dyw'r cysylltiadau i ieithoedd eraill ddim yn gweithio, mae rhybuddion PHP yn aml yn sarnu top y dudualen, mae variables fel NIFEROERTHYGLAU, ENWMISCYFOES ayyb. ar y dudalen hafan ddim yn gweithio, mae taflen cynnwys yn ymddangos lle nad oedd un i gael o'r blaen (e.e. ar y dudalen hafan, o dan 'Gwyddoniadur') ayyb. ayyb. Ai bygs dros dro yn y meddalwedd yw'r rhain i gyd? Gareth Wyn 16:44, 28 Mai 2004 (UTC)

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.3_comments_and_bug_reports#Welsh_Wikipedia Marnanel 17:59, 28 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Wel, mae hi wedi gwella tipyn, ond mae ail-gyfeirio wedi torri o hyd... er enghraifft anthem cenedlaethol, a cannoedd o rai eraill: Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, prif dinas... Gareth Wyn 22:22, 28 Mai 2004 (UTC)

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MediaWiki is no more

I've been looking into the changes caused by the upgrade to 1.3. Here's what I've found out. (These are my interpretations, not anything official):

• The MediaWiki namespace has been renamed to Template. Every page that used to exist in MediaWiki has been moved to Template.
• Don't use MediaWiki any more. It won't work.
• As well as writing e.e. {{MSG:Ewrop}} you can now write just {{Ewrop}}.
• The talk pages for MediaWiki have been moved to Template_talk, unfortunately. We need to have both the name "Template" and "Template_talk" yn Gymraeg, but I'm not sure how to do that.

-- Marnanel 19:57, 29 Mai 2004 (UTC)

It'll need an update to LanguageCy.php in the CVS database, though the developers are very slow to action requested updates (there are problems with making sure concurrent updates don't get lost). I'll see to this, but won't be home until late on Tuesday. In the meantime I'm paying 5p a minute for internet access, so I'm not minded to do an awful lot of edits until I get back on broadband! Arwel 21:46, 29 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Actually it's only the user-defined MediaWiki pages that have been moved -- the user interface is still there. Arwel 23:44, 29 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Gan bwyll! I find that a lot of things work (or sometimes don't) on the old skin that never work (or sometimes do) on the new one... I have set my ffafriaethau to the old skin, as I find the way the new one jumps form quite all right to no use at all and back again rather exasperating. I'm looking forward to the time when the problems are solved and things work smoothly again... (probably that will be the time people start to think about the next software update... *sigh*).

Btw, anybody around with a nice and friendly sign saying "DON'T PANIC!"?? --okapi 14:46, 30 Mai 2004 (UTC) ;-)

<large>DON'T PANIC!</large> :) By the way, does anyone know what the Welsh word for "template" actually is? Arwel 22:04, 30 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Diolch!!! :-D --okapi 09:25, 31 Mai 2004 (UTC)

It's 'patrymlun', but I recommend that you not use that for two reasons: firstly, it sounds like it is a description of a physical template, not in the computing sense (it translates as 'pattern picture'), and secondly I think 'template' is the wrong word to begin with. Surely a template, in this sense, is some empty framework that you fill in, rather than this case where we have a 'note' stuck on to each page where required. In which case, I recommend 'nodyn' (='note', plural 'nodiadau'). Unless, of course, 'nodyn' is already used somewhere else... Gareth Wyn 22:23, 30 Mai 2004 (UTC)

I have tried making up a Template:CIS, but it neither displays properly with { { MSG:CIS} } nor with { { CIS } }. Anything changed? (--User:Okapi; marnanel removed <nowiki> because that is apparently also broken)

It should work if you rename the page to Template:CIS: MediaWiki is no more! Marnanel 02:28, 2 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Wela i! Diolch yn fawr am y neges ac am symud y tudalen!--okapi 02:35, 2 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Croatia a Fatican

A new puzzle: both seem to have registered in the newidiadau diweddar and can be opened properly from there, but they refuse to link anywhere. However, if you click on the red Croatia or Fatican links on any page they appear on, the edit box appears with the text that was recorded earlier IN IT. However, I cannot save any further changes to the text. All other countries seem to work fine. What is this? An international conspiration by some dark force opposed to... whatever Croatia and the Fatican have in common??? ;-) --okapi 09:25, 31 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Woops, seems to work now... --okapi 09:31, 31 Mai 2004 (UTC)

San Marino still does it, even after a day... And some work on the OSCE-page but not on Gwledydd y byd... --okapi 11:06, 1 Meh 2004 (UTC)

And Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart only links to 2 pages even though he should link to about 11. Napoleon doesn't link very well either... --okapi 15:08, 18 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Elisabeth II o'r Deyrnas Unedig

Would somebody please have a look at her? We seem to have lost the contents as of yesterday and instead there seems to be a new redirect, but I somehow cannot make head nor tail of it... --okapi 14:12, 31 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Looks like User:137.222.10.58 (someone from Bristol) attempted to do some editing and got things a bit confused. I've reverted back to the last obviously good version. Marnanel 17:50, 31 Mai 2004 (UTC)

Rhestr o'r Erthyglau

Oes modd cael rhestr o'r erthyglu sydd yn y gwyddioniadur?

Diolch Dyfrig 00:21, 6 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Oes. Gwlewch "Tudalennau arbennig" ar y chwith ac wedyn "Pob tudalen". Yna mae rhestr pob tudalen yn nhrefn y wyddor: "10 Awst i 23 Medi", "23 Mehefin i Esperanto", "Estonia i Thomas Edward Lawrence", "Tiwlip i Éire". Beth bynnag, dw i ddim yn hollol siwr pa ffordd mae hynnyn yn gweithio, e.e. pam fod Éire ar ôl Tiwlip? Mae'r tudalen yn dweud hefyd fod y rhestr ddim yn rhy newydd ("Dyma gopi rydym ni wedi cadw ers 23:31, 17 Mai 2004:").

Gyda llaw, ydy hi'n well calw pobl yn "ti" neu yn "chi" pan yn sgrifennu neges rhywle mwen "sgwrs" neu mewn "Y Caffi"? --okapi 07:35, 6 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Byddwn i'n awgrymu defnyddio "chi" os yn cyfarch yn gyffredinol. Os yn cyfarch rhywun yn benodol a bod y person hwnnw yr ydych wedi sgwrsio gyda fe o'r blaen neu yn ddefnyddiwr yr ydych chi'n gyfarwydd gyda'r enw byddai "ti" yn iawn yn fy marn i.

Dyfrig 13:10, 6 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Diolch am y "hint"! Dw i byth yn siwr pa un sydd yn dda ei ddefnyddio... --okapi 15:33, 6 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Articles with articles

I was wondering whether we have (or should have?) a policy about articles with articles in front of them. At the moment we seem rather inconsistent. For example we have "Y Deyrnas Unedig" but "yr Unol Daleithiau". And this does not only apply to countries, but organisations like the "Cenhedloedd Unedig" also seem to have an article. I have found the same inconsistency in the Online Dictionary by the BBC, and they sometimes also mention both.

And besides all that I have also been wondering whether it is good style for an encyclopedia to have an endless list of articles all starting with the article, ehm, things like y whateverelse.

Thinking about all this I have been wondering whether the following would be practicable:

• Terms without an article aren't any problem anyways.
• Terms with usually do take an article could be written without an article in the heading and with an article in the text. So you would look for Unol Daleithiau but in the text it would be yr Unol Daleithiau. The only problem are female nouns, they probably would turn into things like Teyrnas Unedig in the heading and y Deyrnas Unedig in the text.
• Places names with an article that do not include a noun describing their function or organisation like "y Fenni", "yr Almaen" or "y Swistir" could have the Article both in the title (y Fenni, yr Almaen, y Swistir) and in the text (y Fenni, yr Almaen, y Swistir) to avoid confusion, especially if they are hard to understand without the article.

What do you think about this? Any opinions? Or more practicable ideas? --okapi 10:49, 18 Meh 2004 (UTC)

I think we should have the article in the second two, because Welsh doesn't have an indefinite article: so Teyrnas Unedig translates as A United Kingdom (and the accepted translation of UK is DU, not TU). Similarly Cenhedloedd Unedig translates as some united nations. (BTW, in my view, Unol Daleithiau should be at Unol Daleithiau America with appropriate redirects.) I agree about the problem with a possible plethora of pages starting with y/yr. Is it possible to set up a script so that the sorting ignores 'Y_' and 'Yr_' in the Arbennig:Allpages page? It would also be a chance to get Éire back in the right place. Gareth Wyn 16:42, 18 Meh 2004 (UTC)

I have a Welsh-order sorting script; I wonder how easy it'd be to produce a Wikipedia patch to do similarly. I'll look into it. (BTW, should Éire be sorted as if it was Eire?) Marnanel 18:15, 18 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Yes, accents are ignored in sorting. Gareth Wyn 09:04, 21 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Aaaah, the missing indefinite article... I have to admit that I did not consider that problem. But I see your point. So shall we just rename pages as we come across them, the same tactics as with the centuries? And would it be correct to assume that all names of organisations and instutions should have an article, like y Senedd Ewropeaidd or y Gymanwlad? And would the article have to start with a capital letter in the middle of a sentence, is it e.g. Roedd dadl am y pwnc yn y Senedd Ewropeiadd or is it Roedd dadl am y pwnc yn Y Senedd Ewropeaidd? And yes, I agree, it would be nice if there was a way to ignore the articles during sorting... --okapi 13:40, 19 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Not all names will have a definite article -- it depends if it's 'the X Y' or 'the X of Y' in English. For example, 'the [adjective] [noun]' would become 'y(r) [enw] [ansoddair]' (usually); 'the [noun1] of [noun2]' becomes just '[enw1] [enw2]'. (cf the difference between 'y Senedd Ewropeaidd' and 'Senedd Ewrop'; 'The European Parliament' and 'The Parliament of Europe'. 'Unol Daleithiau America' is an exception.) Secondly, y/yr is never capitalised in the middle of a sentence. Hope this helps! Gareth Wyn 09:04, 21 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Aaaaargh! I will never remember all this... But I will try! Thanks for the detailed explanation. I would like to move the gist of this discussion (and of the discussion about canrifoedd way back when) into a page about style or design, it would be much easier to find them there for quick reference than having to scroll through the Caffi pages. However, as I cannot edit Hafan would somebody please start an appropriate page with a title yn Cymraeg? Diolch! --okapi 06:04, 22 Meh 2004 (UTC)

I was actually wondering whether it would be an idea to set up a new page, just for linguistic questions... Wicipedia:Cymorth_iaith perhaps? That way, in addition to asking about style questions related to Welsh grammar, people could ask about translations they needed there rather than in article sgwrs pages, which are less well-frequented. As for a style and design page, there's already a link to 'Guide to layout and style' under 'Ysgrifennu erthyglau', but we need a Welsh title for the links... Wicipedia:Arddull (style)? Gareth Wyn 08:53, 22 Meh 2004 (UTC)

I like the idea about Wicipedia:Cymorth_iaith! But maybe it might be a good idea to point out things (or at least a hint to look at the Cymorth-iaith-page) in the sgwrs-page as well, for those who enter via the page itself. And a page Wicipedia:Arddull also would be great... What does everybody else think? --okapi 03:46, 24 Meh 2004 (UTC)

I had a go at the Wicipedia:Arddull -- What do you think? I basically included the results of the three discussions we had during the past few weeks and (as there was no appearent opposition) put in a short text introducing the Wicipedia:Cymorth_iaith.

Any opinions?? --okapi 09:01, 28 Meh 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting!!!! I've linked the page to Hafan...

BTW, it has started to dawn on me that the canrifoedd also all need articles, don't they?? --okapi 01:05, 29 Meh 2004 (UTC)

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Assorted questions and requests

We have just had a request by anonymous (24.189.115.160) to write an article about Ralph Chubb. Art and poetry is way above my head in almost any language, so I'm afraid I won't, but how do we react to those requests anyways?

And there also was an unsigned remark on the tudalen sgwrs Wzbecistan a couple of days ago, asking whether it should be "Wsbecistan" or "Wzbecistan". I've tried both on a search-engine, "Wsbecistan" defenitely produced the better results... What do do? --okapi 13:18, 29 Meh 2004 (UTC)

On the Ralph Chubb front, personally I don't think we should do anything about it. We're building up the Welsh wikipedia, not this other person. If they feel it's that important, then they need to go and find someone else to translate the article, then they can include it themselves. We should concentrate on the topics we think are most important, or that we are best able to write about. That's just my opinion, of course. Deb 19:32, 29 Meh 2004 (UTC)

...And there's no "z" in Welsh. Deb 19:34, 29 Meh 2004 (UTC)

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Health

I've been a little uneasy writing about health (including that of animals), as I am no specialist and basically only collecting information from other websites. But I think it might be a nice idea to include a warning about medical advice anyways, just in case. I have tried to write one: Template:Cyngor meddygol, you can see what it looks like on the BSE on the top of the page, on Asthma on the bottom before the internet links and on Clwyf y traed a’r genau on the very bottom. It might be nice to have a red background, but I do not know how to change that. What do you think? And if you like the idea, where should it be placed? --okapi 02:10, 1 Gor 2004 (UTC)

That looks good. I've got Wicipedia:Gwadiad Cyffredinol copied over from en:, which is still to be translated, which is connected to from the Gwadiadau link at the bottom of every page. -- Arwel 20:12, 1 Gor 2004 (UTC)

Save the Otters!

I am afraid that I managed to cock up the Dwrgi a bit yesterday by moving it to Dwrgi (mamal) due to a misunderstanding... I am prepared to fix it, but would somebody please delete the (now empty) Dwrgi for me? As long as it exists I cannot move the Dwrgi (mamal) back... Pleeeeeeease! --okapi 01:11, 7 Gor 2004 (UTC)

Done! :) -- Arwel 01:16, 7 Gor 2004 (UTC)

Diolch!!! :-D --okapi 01:18, 7 Gor 2004 (UTC)

ENWMISCYFOES

OK, here we go again. I see from the discussion above that it's not just me who doesn't understand how templates work. I noticed that the month - "Gorffennaf" - is spelled wrong on "Hafan", but try as I might, I cannot figure out how to amend the template - I just can't find the page. Will someone knowledgeable please assist? Deb 20:17, 7 Gor 2004 (UTC)

IIRC date strings are a languagexx.php thing-- we'll need to ask a developer. Marnanel 20:38, 7 Gor 2004 (UTC)

Create article

Something else gone missing... Does anybody know what happened to the "create article"-function? I don't remember what it was called in Welsh, but if you used the chwiliwch-box looking for an article that did not yet exist the programme asked you if you wanted to create it. That sometimes was useful, but it seems to have vanished... --okapi 14:56, 9 Gor 2004 (UTC)

That'll be because Wikipedia's own search facility has been turned on at last, rather than having to use Google and Yahoo. I see that on the English Wikipedia there's a "create this article" option on the search result page -- I shall have to see if I can find out what it's called, and try to apply the same to the Welsh version! -- Arwel 00:08, 10 Gor 2004 (UTC)

Got it. It's MediaWiki:Nogomatch, which you get when there's no exact match on a search. The "create this article" option is working now. All the best, Arwel 00:24, 10 Gor 2004 (UTC)